Wednesday, August 17, 2005

Jesus Speaks Out Against Public Prayer

Jesus solves the issue of public prayer:

Matthew 6:5-8:
5: And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6: But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7: But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8: Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Ok, this issue is settled! This is a quote straight from JC's mouth. If you try to pray at a football game, or in school, or shove it down peoples throats anywhere else, not only is it rude, not only do you look ridiculous, not only may you be breaking the law if you're doing it in a public place funded by my tax money, but you will also burn in Hell.

After all, the premise of Christianity is to obey what Jesus says, otherwise...


The Revelator said...

Just another a-hole who takes Scripture totally out of its context which we ALL know is a pretext.

Assclown, he was making a point to the hypocritical Pharisees as to how they loved to be seen in public being the 'anointed ones.'
Kind of like the Demo/Moonbat?Lefties who don't give a hoot about praying anyway. They don't belive IN God they believe the ARE god!
What a assclown.

Mike V. said...

Your complete destruction of the English language aside, let's look at what you said:
" Just another a-hole who takes Scripture totally out of its context which we ALL know is a pretext."
So what should we do with right wing nuts and religious freaks that take pieces of the Bible out of context in order to hate others?
I guess we've never seen that happen so one group (crazed right wingers) can marginalize another (gays).
Taken literally, the quote in the post from Jesus is actually very clear.

trick said...

I'm not really up on my bible studies, so I'll take your word, Revelator, that this was in response to the Pharisees. But I think it is irrelevant who Jesus was speaking of. He was not merely pointing out the hypocrisy of one group. He was using them as an example to teach everyone else how they should act.

Revelator, and all other loud-mouthed professed Christians, keep your prayer between yourself and your God. If everyone really heard what was in your head when you are praying you're alone, we'd know you're praying for more attention at the expense of others, like a lot of other hypocrite self-proclaimed Christians. Stand up like a true follower of Christ and work and speak out for your beliefs and for others. Stand up and take responsibility for your actions and take the consequences of other people reacting to your ideas. Stop hiding behind an anonymous post just to be an agitator and contribute something real to this discussion. Really, your response would just repulse Jesus and any of his true followers.

Tom Harper said...

That's a great passage. I've also shown that to "Christians" and they always have some long-winded answer to show that Jesus didn't really mean it.

Beezlebubba said...

Jesus fuck thats some funny shit...

Justice Sunday 3: From Behind A Podium In The Basement of A Falwell Home

Toad734 said...

RE: Revelator AKA another anonymous

Mike V summed it up pretty well. At least Jesus actually said the things I printed. He never said gays could not marry, he never said you should hate fags, he never said to raise taxes on poor people, he never said the richer you are the closer you are to God, he never said it was ok to divorce (which over 50% of Protestants do), he never said that it's the poors fault for being hungry, he never said you should hate your enemy or your neighbor,he never said that you should punish the sick, he never said that war was good, he never said it was ok to be greedy, yet you voted for a guy who supposedly "walks with God".

Apparently you are the ones who are taken scripture out of context.

And yes he is making an example out of the Pharisees, just as his examples of loving sinners such as Mary Magdalene, feeding the poor and healing the sick and replacing/healing the ear of his Roman enemy and his lesson about turning the other cheek. Are you saying that those aren't really Christian lessons that he wanted Christians to live their life by? Because if you are saying what Jesus said didn't matter then I am fine with that, you just have to ignore the rest of the Bible as well. Don't throw your baby out with the bath water.

Nölff said...


Grant said...

The bit about the repetittion reminds me of the families that teach their children to recite "God is great / God is good / Let us thank Him / For this food / Amen." The first time I heard that as a child I remember wondering "What the hell was the point in that?"

I agree with and support your view that proper prayer should be between a person and his or her god, however Matthew goes on to quote Jebus as saying:

28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Which I take to mean Jebus has therefore commanded all his sheep to bug the crap out of the rest of us until we give in. I'm glad I don't care what JC has to say.

Toad734 said...

RE: Grant

I am not saying that Jesus didn't say to covert the "non-believer", he didn't say to kill them, but that is another issue all together.

So yes, Jesus said to annoy people by teaching them the "word" but he specifically says to don't boast your connection to God and to pray quietly and by yourself, not in public for everyone to see.

And it's funny you mention that you don't have to follow what Jesus says; at least you have something in common with Christians.

Dont look now but I am about to go over 10,000 hits.

Boiled Owl said...

The revelotor takes 3 words to get to the ad hominum insult. That's a sure sign that he knows he's lost the argument before he even opened his mouth.

Fun to watch the "emperor" discover that he's not wearing clothes, huh Toad?

Toad734 said...

I really wish that people with an educated opinion would join into the debate; is this the best the right has to offer? I would have just assumed they had a little more weight behind their causes. I have seen very few who would fit that description.

This blog isn't supposed to be a soap box it was supposed to be an open forum of debate; an outreach from one side to the other.

Can anyone out there offer an intelligent, educated debate?

Surely someone out there knows the Bible better than I.


Sandi said...

There are many people out here that know the Bible better than you Toad, but by knowing the book better, one must assume that they are aware of how stupid and illogical the book is.
They just don't want to enter into a losing argument with you. Take it as a complement.

United We Lay said...

Great post. Christians teach a class in arguing for the faith. Maybe you should teach a class in arguing against it.

United We Lay said...

Call it non-Apologetics.

City Troll said...

I love when fools speak or express their point of view, it's always such good entertainment.

keep posting toad.

Ryan said...

This has always been my biggest gripe with contemporary christianity, its complete inability to latch onto even the faintest hint of consistency with their goals and message, and those of Christ.

Look at the biggest christian causes today and in the last election. Which are in line with the teachings of christ?

It is so blatently obvious that like the riddle of history has always shown, religion is a tool of oppression. The powerful use their prestige to push their own agendas, all the while using chrisitanity to dispense eternal life if you only go along with them.

Sorry Toad, just more echoes I know. Unfortunately, your analysis is just too logical for the christian believers to debate with emotional piety and blind faithfulness.

Good work on your bible research. Its nice to use Christs own words to debate his supposed "followers". I think there are so many more of these cases where the word in the bible doesn't mesh with the agenda of the right wing. I think they just hope that leftist heathens dont actually pick up their holy book to find them...

Toad734 said...

RE: Ryan

Or they just call you a fool for reciting the bible.

Matthew 5:
22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Dani said...

This is somewhat off the topic, but
I thought you would get a kick out of this:

NewsBlog 5000 said...

Jesus said the darndest things.

United We Lay said...

Toad, great response to city. He left a similar comment on my blog and I made a post out fo my response.

LibraryTavern Liz said...

It always amazes me that people will take one bible passage as the absolute word of god (even something from the OT) to be taken literally, and then turn around and say that another passage isn't important (even if it's from the NT). But there are many Xians who really do follow Jesus. As that great rock-n-roll theologian Michael Stanley said, "the Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord."

indygirl said...

Oh. My. The prayer closet. Carrie-style.

City Troll said...


You posted a comment with out even reading the post you commented on.

As I said before.

I love when fools speak or express their point of view, it's always such good entertainment.

keep posting toad.

I posted a response to your response

Toad734 said...

Post comment posted comment comment on post to post a comment.

Yes I am the fool.

City Troll said...

well at least you know it

Boiled Owl said...

Troll, if you're going to defend the righteous right, you might want to re-think your grafik. You're lookin' pretty satanic there, bud.

(...of course there's always the possibility that "you", and the word "think" should never, ever appear in the same sentence.)

Two Minutes J said...

hey I get my coffee from a guy named Jesus! and yes fuckwads, thats Geez-us, not hey-zeus. So, is this the same guy we're talking about here? Oh wait, that Jesus guy, yea the kids love him.

City Troll said...

mmmm a nice soup of boiled owl

City Troll said...

besides I am not defending anyone I'm ridiculing the foolish

Erudite Redneck said...

Toad, I am a Christian. I'm not worth a damn at it, actually, but that's beside the point.

The point: You're dead on right.

The main problem, IMHO, with the Christian Wrong is they deify the Bible, as if the concept of the Trinity wasn't difficult enough. They want a quadrophonic God!

They mistakenly call what James referred to as "working out your salvation" -- which pretty much means thinking, reasoning and meditating, admitting doubt, struggling to find the truth, but relying on the mysteries of God to see us through, as well, as something bad.

The absolute surest sign that someone has fooled himself into falsely believing he is "saved" is lack of humility. I can think of aboout one or two famous Christians who exhibit humility. And I can think of very few everyday "Christians" who exhibit such.

The fact is, if evangelical conventional wisdom about the Rapture is accurate, the sudden absence of so few people will hardly be noticed. Maybe a crawl on MSNBC for half a day.

God help us all, and God bless you. All y'all.


ThatGayConservative said...

Hmmm. Please tell us all about Matthew 6 including details relating to context.

Joe Wiess said...

It's been a while since I've had time to look over the debates. But, that's what happens when work swallows up your time.

However, I am going to disagree with you as well. (Big surprise, eh?) JC, as you so well put it, was discussing hypocrisy, because the pharisee's and Saducees liked to stand out in front of their temples, tear thier clothes, and put ash on their faces. However, he knew that they were only doing it for the show. In the creator's eyes, that is wrong. Better honest hatred than false love.

There is another passage in the Bible, I'm sure that you will be able to find it. "Where two or more of you are gathered in my name, there I am." So, praying at football games or in school, I think, would fall under that scripture, for two reasons: 1) It is student driven (Much like the circle the flagpole), and student led. (No adults included.)
I am tolerant of other beliefs, only screaming loudly and waving my Rifle (Yes, that's a sarcastic remark :) ) when other people try to shut my beliefs down.
Honestly, if you are going to teach evolution in schools, you should also give the other side of the coin, which is creationism (Or Intelligent Design.)

Take for instance, the mistranslation out of the ten commandments: Thou Shalt not Kill.
A scholar has recently pointed out that the proper translation should be: Thou shalt not committ murder.
There is a difference, sometimes you have to kill to defend your life, your family, or even to eat. (Animals, not people. Even I'm not that sick.) Killing is done either for that reason, or in the defense of your country.

Murder, on the other hand, is a planned thing, designed only to take a human life and extinguish the greatest gift we've been given.

LibraryTavern Liz said...

To the commenter who said, if you are going to teach evolution in schools, you should also give the other side of the coin, which is creationism, I must ask, does that mean that if we are going to teach that the earth is spherical we should also teach the other side--that the earth is flat????

Mike said...

While I appreciate the great hermeneutical and exegetical properties of your interpretation of Scripture, Jesus, quite obviously, meant here, even reading it out of context the way you have it posted, that it is not the act of praying in public that is wrong, but the attitude of wanting to be seen praying in public. If there is a public prayer at a football game, then so be it. My question is, why should there be a law against such a thing? If "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" then how can you outlaw someone's right to pray?

Mike said...

To the commenter who said, if you are going to teach evolution in schools, you should also give the other side of the coin, which is creationism, I must ask, does that mean that if we are going to teach that the earth is spherical we should also teach the other side--that the earth is flat????

No. It has been proven beyond reasonable doubt that the earth is not flat. Evolution, is full of holes, is an ever-changing theory and has many obvious flaws. Intelligent Design seeks to answer some of those questions that can only be answered by understanding that life comes from life. Order comes from order. Order cannot come from chaos. In science there is always a cause for the effect. In evolution this isn't the case. So let's stop playing games. If evolution is so bullet-proof then there should be no harm in an honest dialogue to get at the truth. After all, isn't that what science is supposed to be about? The truth?! Instead, there is more concern with indoctrinating people into an ideology rather than finding the truth.

Erudite Redneck said...

Re, If "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" then how can you outlaw someone's right to pray?

Spontaneous prayers by everyday people at football games -- wait, even ORGANIZED prayers by everyday people at football games is one thing. A teacher, or administrator, or even a student, leading a prayer, on the loudspeaker, at a football game, is another. And it's that last thing that, arguably, that is an "establishment of religion" in that it is the school system (a form of government) that is creating (pardon the expression) the situation for the prayewr to be uttered, if uttered by a student, or that is actually uttering the prayer, through its employee, if uttered by a teadcher or administrator.

It ain't about prayer at football games. It's about government prayer at football games -- and I love Jesus, but I'm agin' it. I do NOT want to ever have to give equal time to Allah. What part of that do people not understand?

Toad734 said...

RE: Mike

Who says the people who pray at football games and every where else arent doing it just to be seen?

Josh said...

hehehehe!!! some nice pics there!! :)

Toad734 said...

RE: Mike

Creationism is full of even more holes; in fact, it's all holes, there isn't one single part of it that stands up to any scientific scrutiny; let’s talk about and address that. At least evolution is mostly complete; creationism has yet to even pop the cork.

Jack Mercer said...


Always trust you to come up with some interesting pics!